Jens Bringsjord
You're listening to Design Atlas Season four. Three.

Megan Luedke
Have you ever wondered about the hidden language of design that holds the key to unraveling the complexities of climate change and environmental awareness? Today on the Design Atlas podcast, we pose a question that will lead us on an illuminating journey at the intersection of graphic design and environmentalism.

Dr. Rebecca Green
It was Exxon, and they talked about how emissions are lower today than they were in the 1970s. But actually, the truth to that claim is that, it's the catalytic converter that makes emissions smaller on acre. But there are so many more cars now than there were in the 1970s that emissions are way up on what they were then.

Megan Luedke
That's Doctor Rebecca Green, a lecturer and researcher at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, with a rich background in graphic design and sociology. She brings a unique interdisciplinary perspective to her work.

Jens Bringsjord
Driven by a passion for effective communication. Her research delves into the intricate world of visual communication in the context of climate change.

Megan Luedke
Through her expertise as an experienced graphic designer and illustrator, Doctor Green explores the profound impact that the language of graphic design can project in influencing the reception and trust in strategic climate messaging.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Well, my name is Becky Green. I live in Sydney, Australia. I haven't lived here the whole time. I've actually lived in lots of different places. My dad was an Air Force officer, so I had quite one of those upbringings where you move every few years. So it's kind of a good mirror to my restless career as well, where I really feel like I need new challenges.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I never I never started out wanting to be an academic. I didn't even know what that was, to be honest. When I was in high school, I just wanted to draw comics. I wanted to be a cartoonist, you know, like political cartoonist that draw for newspapers and that kind of thing. But I just, I couldn't quite see a pathway as to how to get there when I was in high school.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And I couldn't really say that, you know, other than a few really talented cartoonists that you could really make a living out of that. so I applied for a history degree at, at one of the best unis in Australia, and I got in, but I wasn't really feeling it. I just kind of did it because I thought that's what you had to do.

Dr. Rebecca Green
so I took some time off and worked as a waiter. I don't know how many people do that, but there were a lot in in the late 80s, early 90s. and I started just drawing comics and cartoons and illustrating on the side. And I started to get a bit of work drawing for, some graphic designers.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And I was like, oh, what do they do? And I'd never even heard of a graphic designer. This was in about 1992. and as soon as I'd seen that, I knew that's what I was built for. So I went straight away. I got in, I spent two years learning how to be a graphic designer, and I finished with a diploma, and I then went straight into a studio.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I did that for a few years. and then I went to the State Museum in Queensland, which is kind of like the subtropical north of Australia. which was it was really cool because that brought in my love of history as well. So I got to design exhibitions. I got to crawl inside the only German World war tank in the world.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I got to visit the flesh eating worms room, you know, designed a shipwreck exhibition, like all this cool stuff. So that was really cool. and so that's kind of how I got into graphic design. And so the beginning of my career there.

Jens Bringsjord
Doctor Green's journey to her true passion was a process of exploration and experimentation. Graphic design emerged as the beacon of fulfillment amidst various interests she tested along the way. Although the convergence of graphic design with environmental, sustainable ity unfolded later in her career, there was a thread woven into the fabric of her life. From the very beginning, Doctor Green's creative calling and commitment to environmental concerns has not just defined her professional trajectory, but has been an intrinsic part of her personal narrative all along.

Dr. Rebecca Green
My mum is an ecologist. the first Doctor Green, we shall say. She is, her expertise is in spiders, and particularly the Sydney funnel web, which of course is the most dangerous spider in the world. Great. We had a tank of them, actually, outside my bedroom door. We had a tank of 60 funnel webs, which, you know, I moved out when I was 17.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I'm sure there's no link, but, it was always surprising. You go into the kitchen and open the freezer and there'd be always dead spiders in there in little jars, because that's the most humane way to put them to sleep. So it's quite, quite the upbringing. But. So it always been there. but it wasn't until I left the museum and I was working at a record label, which I really thought was going to be the coolest job ever, and it was for for a year or two.

Megan Luedke
And so Doctor Green began her work at the record label company. And as time went by, she started to feel appalled at how much waste and plastic her work produced as a designer.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Walking out into the warehouse and saying, just endless shelves of plastic stuff shrink wrapped in more plastic, it really started to make me see what industry I was fading as a designer, you know, we were doing really cool stuff like album covers and DVDs and CDs and interactive menus. But actually what we were doing is filling the world with more plastic.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And a lot of the titles we were selling, I wasn't really I didn't really feel was important or, you know, contributing to society. So yeah, it was at that point that I realized I just I wasn't making the right contribution. There was actually a quote, too, from Tibor Coleman from that I'd read in Adbusters that said, don't work for companies that ask you to lie for them.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And once I read that, I was like, well, that's it, I've got to quit. I can't, I can't work here another day. I just quit. It didn't feel good. I was also an athlete, at the time, and I was going through this big change where I'd worked really, really hard. I'd found myself at the World Championships in my sport, which was taekwondo.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I'd won a bronze medal. Which which I was like, this is the coolest thing that's ever happened. And I'd worked really hard and spent a lot of money and done all of this stuff. And I'm standing on this podium, and I really expected to feel something and I didn't. I was like, who really cares about this? You know, my family does and my my fellow team members.

Dr. Rebecca Green
But in how did I help, how many lives did I improve? And it was a really big moment for me. Just all of this stuff happened around the same time. And so I just I quit my job, I stopped competing, I joined the Air Force and, and I went back to, to uni and studied a masters into what barriers exist for graphic designers in sustainability.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And it was a real eye opener because there are a lot. I studied up in Brisbane, which is in Queensland, at a uni called Griffith University, and that was at the Queensland College of Art, which was their premier, art school. And it just so happened they had asked me to come in and do a guest lecture.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I think it was on, museum design because it's quite a specified area. So they went when a lot of us around, and it just was just stepping back into that world. I could feel my brain almost. It was almost like I'd spent so long working at my body as an athlete. I could feel my brain starting to do that same thing, and I that was it for me.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And so I applied for a master, was a two year masters, and I just sort of I did it in one. I had a bit of savings, so I just stopped working, and took the year off and did that, and, it was so good. My brain felt amazing. I felt it really was a work workout.

Dr. Rebecca Green
and I came out of that, actually, the findings of my thesis was that there are a lot of barriers and that the main barrier is society. You know, our bosses, you know, it's senior management that had got in the way at the record label. They're all part of society. And it's really society that graphic designers are communicating to where translating all these messages into visuals and, you know, I don't think we really know what we're doing when it comes down to it.

Dr. Rebecca Green
We do in a way, but I'm not sure we understand the, the actual impact in, in trust and authenticity and all of that, that our visuals, and make out in the world.

Megan Luedke
After completing her master's degree, Doctor Green ventured into the realm of entrepreneurship, establishing her own sustainable design studio. This marked her earnest attempt to contribute to positive change. The timing, however, couldn't have been more challenging. It coincided with the onset of the global financial crisis, and despite the prevailing economic turmoil, she held onto her ethical stance as a studio.

Megan Luedke
As time went by, Doctor Green found herself defending the integrity embedded in her approach. Doctor green committed to working exclusively with clients who shared a dedication to sustainability or helping others transition toward more environmentally conscious practices. In the face of skepticism from friends who deemed her ideals impractical, she remained resolute amidst the economic uncertainties, her steadfast commitment to sustainable design to find a path less traveled, one that defied conventional wisdom but held the promise of genuine impact.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And actually, in the global financial crisis, I got more work than anybody because because all of those companies that didn't have that ethics started to not need graphic design or started to not exist anymore. so it was really cool. So and look, that was that was great. But I got to the point where I either take on a lot of stuff, or I continue working really, really hard.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And I was still guest lecturing and I kind of I could feel this pull of, of actually teaching other people how to be more sustainable might make more effect. So I went back in, 2012 and studied my PhD into and how graphic designers communicate climate change. That was that big funding from my masters. and again, I did that more because I wanted to teach, but actually three years spent researching to really deep dive into that problem was, again, the biggest brain work workout.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And I came out with a different brain to my brain thinks differently now after doing that, which I didn't expect was like this really cool outcome as well as, you know, the research and the title and, you know, all of that stuff, but actually becoming a different person at the end of that was just so satisfying. You know, it's funny, when I started doing it, one of my old exes said to me, oh, I didn't realize there was enough in graphic design to do a PhD in.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Personally, I was deeply insulted. Yeah, but but then I, I explained to her what what I was studying and how important she was, like, oh my God, I that is, I never thought of that. That is so important. Hurry up. Yeah, I think actually and having the sustainability was a big selling point when I went for the job here at Unsw.

Dr. Rebecca Green
so I've been here for four years now. and I've, I sort of teach whatever is needed and climate change is one of them. and then there's the others are fantastic as well. So it's a, it's a really good way to start to bring that into every single course. So of course I'm pushing really hard and offering to help everybody.

Dr. Rebecca Green
And because it's so important and, you know, it's amazing because the students are really into it, that's it's a really big deal to them. I think it's heartening for them to know that graphic designers can make a positive contribution. In terms of sustainability. I've noticed a big change in students and my lectures have changed as well. and how I approach it, where initially I was teaching students about the problem, about climate change and then moving to sustainable graphic design, but now I'm just jumping straight in.

Dr. Rebecca Green
They're all on board. And, you know, and the emails that I get and the messages that I get after they've had that kind of lecture is like, thank you so much for for showing me. And, you know, I feel like I can contribute in graphic design. I feel like I, I can keep studying, because it is important, you know, you've given us some tools that we can actually design sustainably with.

Jens Bringsjord
As Doctor Green reflected on the nature of graphic design, she candidly acknowledged a paradox. It's a bit of a misnomer to think that graphic design, in any form, be a digital or print, doesn't inherently leave an ecological footprint. The act of creating something new inevitably entails some environmental impact. However, Doctor Green emphasizes a crucial perspective shift. The key lies in cultivating awareness of this impact and actively striving to minimize it.

Megan Luedke
In her view, the essence is not in eliminating the footprint entirely, but in conscientiously working to reduce it wherever possible. Doctor green underscores the multitude of avenues available for designers to make more sustainable choices. It's an invitation to the design community to engage in a thoughtful dance between creativity and environmental responsibility, acknowledging that every design leaves a mark, but encouraging a collective effort to make that mark as eco friendly as possible.

Dr. Rebecca Green
I like to separate into three different areas. The first one is to make, technical contributions. Things like being aware of, much better paper. You know, there's even a paper that we have here that's instead of being, you know, cooked in a, in an oven and using all of that energy, it's dried in the hot Australian sun, you know, or better bleaches and all that kind of thing.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Soy inks. So that's the kind of technical approach, you know, and shapes, sizes and all that kind of consideration. which is that the real enjoyable detail of being a graphic designer, right. Solving a problem with all those skills we've learned. but then there's also the content of the message and choosing who you're working with, which can be a lot harder, particularly for junior designers.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Sometimes as a junior, you've got to just get out there and learn how to do it first and spend maybe a couple of years just doing your best in that area. But I think once you get to about a mid weight and onwards, you really can start making informed choices about what kinds of people you're working with and what the messages are that you're putting out there and just going with your instinct.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Is this really, you know, contributing to the world in a positive way? and just, you know, there it takes time to learn how to guide people in a better direction, without being to, you know, making people feel bad or defensive. But, you know, deploying graphic designer skills to help, I've always found to be extremely warmly received by people who want to change.

Dr. Rebecca Green
So the third one is to actually use your graphic design skills as an agent for change. So actually trying to do something that changes the world in some way. So kind of those three approaches a where I would isolate things and really any, any help in any of those areas is going to make a really big difference. So it's all about just doing your best.

Megan Luedke
So how does one craft a piece of graphic design that exudes trust? According to Doctor Green, the process becomes more seamless when the underlying message is not just good, but genuine and honest. In such cases, the design almost effortlessly takes shape, seemingly designing itself.

Jens Bringsjord
Yet there is a cautionary note. Amidst the ease of design, one must tread carefully when selecting colors specific understanding the color psychology at a deeper level, Doctor Green's insights suggest that beyond the technical aspects of design, the ethical foundation of the message, and the thoughtful choice of visual elements play pivotal roles in creating a piece of graphic design that resonates with trustworthiness and understanding.

Dr. Rebecca Green
That may be maybe read, but climate change doesn't mean warning and hot and danger. Maybe it means this is a corporate website which which means people don't actually trust it as much. So actually sort of being a little bit more conceited and not sort of going with that, that sort of, I don't know, 1950s version of what colors mean and, and starting to actually look around, do some visual research, maybe, you know, get some advice on how to send messages out that are more authentic.

Megan Luedke
When we think about the digital space, Doctor Green finds it particularly intriguing, drawing attention to a common perception that a paperless office is inherently more environmentally friendly. However, there is a contrast to this belief, with a reality that often escapes notice. While the shift from print to online mediums is generally deemed ecologically sound, Doctor Green challenges this assumption.

Dr. Rebecca Green
There's a really great study that I saw it, and that concerns a given sort of example 700 page report that a printed version use 85g of CO2, but reading that same report online, for one hour uses 226g of CO2, which is almost three times as much, and that's per hour. Whereas this printed one can be re read by you know, countless people for a century or longer.

Dr. Rebecca Green
In fact, there are some books bound well, that have lasted, you know, two centuries. So so you know, obviously the, you know, something like the magazine industry is going to churn through and it's not really is it's better to read that online. but even newspapers are better to read, the actual printed version because it uses that heavily recycled paper and has done for years.

Dr. Rebecca Green
so that it is a problem. the digital space uses a lot of energy. in fact, before the pandemic, there was another great study that that showed that if you consider the internet as a country, it is the third biggest user of energy in the world, after China and the USA. Russia is fourth. So, you know, it's a big deal.

Dr. Rebecca Green
The internet uses a lot of energy. How you can start to mitigate that as a digital design. It sure is. You know, dark screens, trying not to use as many custom fonts, you know, fewer requests on those servers. that we can't control is how we can control how much energy we're using. and that might be, you know, even just standard usability, like, try not to make it ten clicks to get somewhere, try to make it three, which you do anyway.

Dr. Rebecca Green
Right. So but if you think about how many requests you're sending, in your design, with, with each thing that you that's making it look slightly better, have a think about whether actually that's so necessary or not.

Jens Bringsjord
You know, in the realm of environmental consciousness, a frequently used term in today's day and age has emerged that raises eyebrows and questions the authenticity of eco friendly claims. It's known as greenwashing. The term refers to the deceptive practice of companies and organizations exaggerating or falsely promoting their commitment to environmental responsibility. It's a business practice that aims to conceal the truth about a businesses environmental initiatives.

Dr. Rebecca Green
It is a big problem, but I find that most clients don't realize they're doing it. And so if you can point out in a really informed way, how is the best way to communicate something and gain trust? then then I think they are generally on board with you and it's, you know, a lot of graphic design is making stuff look cool or convincing people one way or another.

Dr. Rebecca Green
But I think the other big part of it is actually the relationships with the people you're working with and being at a cabinet, people, one way or another, that what you've designed is the right thing, right? Because everyone's like, yeah, but I like blue and you're like, well, that's great, but you're not the target audience. So actually you know, practicing and honing that skill of bringing your clients along with you and, you know, onboard the environmental train and feeling really good about it is part of part of the battle.

Megan Luedke
Really, for those embarking on their journey in the design realm, aspiring to make a meaningful impact on both individuals and the environment. And we do hope it's everyone listening to this show. Doctor green offers valuable advice. She suggests that even if your initial design opportunities may not align with creating positive change in a specific industry, there are steps you can take to pave the way for a future where design work contributes positively to both people and the climate.

Dr. Rebecca Green
If you got to look at that bigger picture, what's the message? What's the product? Is it going to benefit society? Is it better to do this than have individual offices with their own things everywhere? If you've got to take a job, just try not to take the worst one, I guess.

Megan Luedke
The intersection of graphic design and environmental consciousness emerges as a dynamic landscape rich with challenges and opportunities. Doctor Green's insights have guided us through the delicate dance of sustainability and design, urging both seasoned professionals and budding enthusiasts to consider the far reaching implications of their creative choices. Her emphasis on the ethical dimensions of design, from combatting greenwashing to conscientiously navigating the digital space, serves as a compass for those navigating the complex terrain of environmental responsibility in the design world.

Jens Bringsjord
Moreover, Doctor Green's journey from a graphic designer to an academic leader and researcher offers a narrative of unwavering commitment to principles. Her trajectory underscores the potential for design to transcend mere esthetics and become a catalyst for positive change.

Megan Luedke
As we wrap up this enlightening conversation, Doctor Green's wisdom resonates as a call to action, urging all of us in the design community to embrace our roles not just as creators, but as stewards of a sustainable and impactful visual language.