ML: Hello, I'm Megan Luedke. 

JB: Good evening. I'm Jens Bringsjord. This is Design Atlas.

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ML: Tonight. 

JB: Crafting a comeback. After eight months of self-reflection and creative reinvention. We at the Design Atlas Podcast are back, bolder, fresher and ready to inspire. 

ML: A journey to the edge of the world. Jack Bailey, an internationally acclaimed landscape photographer, recently ventured into the remote Himalayas on nothing but a motorcycle and a horse, capturing the breathtaking landscapes that are as daring as they are stunning.

JB: Email the timeless connection. At the London Design Museum, we explore an exhibit that celebrates the enduring power of email, reminding us that it's more than just a tool, it's a dynamic force for connection and creativity. 

ML: Cleaning off the dust. We'll meet with a creative studio that's turning the dust of everyday life into stunning ceramic glazes, proving that even sawdust can have a second life as art.

JB: And the flags wave. Our dive into their evolution shows just how these digital symbols are reshaping how we express identity and connection, all the while revealing that the days of adding or changing emoji flags are officially over. 

JB: Design Atlas. The January 2nd edition of the podcast that's ready to mark its territory with a flag that can't be changed.

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CRAFTING A COMEBACK

JB: Hold on to your sketchbook because the Design Atlas Podcast is back. It's great. I'm really glad to be back in the studio and finally recording again. After an eight month creative sabbatical, some self-reflection, a bit of yoga, maybe some deep breathing. We've reimagined our show with a fresh new format and we are so excited to share it. The plan is to bring in multiple guests. Yep, you heard that right. Multiple guests per episode and sprinkle in some narrative driven stories that dive deep into diverse and interesting design topics. Think of it as like a design studio brainstorming session, where new ideas come together to create something truly unique. And as you're perhaps sipping some of that coffee. You'll be listening to stories and narratives that will make you think, laugh, and maybe even question if Comic Sans deserves all that hate.

ML: And let's talk timing, because design is all about precision, right? We're setting our biweekly episodes to drop Thursdays at 6 p.m. EST. Consider it your pre week and mood board for inspiration. It's like happy hour, but instead of those cocktails we're serving up creativity with a side of clever inspiration. So don't forget to pencil us into your calendar, because no designer can resist a good schedule. And we know it's been a hot minute since our last episode. Okay, maybe more like eight months, but absence makes the heart grow fonder, right? So dust off those headphones. Click subscribe and join us as we bring the Design Atlas podcast to exciting new heights. Hit it Jens.

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A JOURNEY TO THE EDGE OF THE WORLD

Featuring Guest: Jack Bailey

JB: Picture this. A rugged motorcycle, maybe a horse or two. The towering peaks of the Himalayas. And a photographer. So daring. He makes Indiana Jones look like a weekend tourist. That's Jack Bailey for you. With his latest jaw dropping collection. Jack has taken landscape photography to dizzying new heights. Literally. But don't be fooled. He's quick to remind us that his creative fuel tank is far from empty. Known for blending raw, natural beauty with abstract emotion, Jack's work feels less like a snapshot and more like a soul whisperer. His self-taught, rule breaking approach has earned him international acclaim and inspired a new generation of photographers to ditch that rulebook in favor of raw creativity. We caught up with Jack to talk about his Himalayan adventure, what it's like to balance on the edge of the world, and a motorcycle seat, and how he turns landscapes into deeply personal stories. We reached Jack in Guadalajara, Mexico. 

ML: One of the reasons we brought you on the show to chat today is to talk about some of your adventures. Specifically, we found your adventures into the Himalayas. via motorcycle and the photos that you captured there. Could you give our listeners just an overview of, like, why you went into that and what that trip entailed?

Jack Bailey: Yeah. Of course. So initially I went to the Himalayas, four years ago, and it was kind of a response to the pandemic. And at a similar time in Byron Bay, where I live, we had this, wild, wild floods that wiped out a fair bit of the field, a few of the towns out there and became quite a big issue, and there was not much government support. So we kind of the community found ourselves rallying and getting a lot of the work done ourselves, like taking people's pets out of mudslides and swimming across swollen rivers to set up zip lines. And that kind of went on for about a month. And at the same time, I was winding down a relationship that should have ended quite a while ago and was kind of dragging through the mud. So it's just completely emotionally and physically spent from that kind of two years prior to that. And I had not much else to offer. And I was kind of really impacting my work. And it was rendering my vision really suffocating. So I had no clarity or focus whatsoever. And there was so much I needed to process that I couldn't even really say three feet in front of my nose. I knew I needed a place and put myself in completely unfamiliar surroundings, and somewhere I could take the time to process and shake off all that mold that infested on my being. I also wanted to land some that had offered complete expansion, to really recalibrate my perspective and widened my vision and get that kind of free thought back. Yeah, so I kind of wanted to also indulge in this feeling of insignificance, and I couldn't really think of anywhere that I'd feel smaller than the Himalayas. And I've recently just returned from the western Himalayas and the Tibetan Plateau, which was more the motorcycle and horseback section of that, to expand into that body of work. 

ML: Wow. So how long did you go to the Himalayas, or how many times have you been since that first trip?

Jack Bailey: This is my second trip. The first trip, I think it was about an eight week trip and six weeks hiking and shooting. Then this trip was three months, ten days horseback. And then the rest of the time was on a motorcycle, camping and shooting. It's just pretty, it was hard work. 

ML: Yeah. That's a lot. How do you, how do you prepare for a trip of that scale and what sort of things do you need to consider in that?

Jack Bailey: To be honest, horrible preparation and research. Yeah. I tend to just kind of, pick a spot and head into it. I mean, I'll do the basic research, you know, like temperatures and what I'm actually going to need to kind of survive. But more than that, I kind of go blind because I really like to go off that ethos, that kind of going in unknown you way more open to surprise and a little bit of fear and anxiety is a really good carrot to chase. You know, it's not, I think, becoming too comfortable. You become complacent, I think. Yeah, that for me, going into the unknown shakes that off a little bit more.

ML: So I mean, as you can imagine, like riding a motorcycle at, you know, the high altitudes and I'm sure that there's all kinds of obstacles that you run into in that. What are some of the, like, logistical and physical demands of traveling in and working and photographing? A journey like this to the Himalayas? 

Jack Bailey: Yeah, that was a big, big struggle for me on this one, because it's impossible to to rent a car on this side. So that renders that completely irrelevant. The horseback presented its own challenges. 

ML: Have you had you ever ridden a horse prior to that? 

Jack Bailey: I had when I was a child, but I definitely was going into it a little bit. A little bit. Again, I'm underprepared, but I had some really good people with me. Yeah. 

ML: So how many people did you have?

Jack Bailey: There was about five other people on this trek. Yeah. So there was a horse wrangler who knew everything was done. There were some other people involved in the trek as well, so I wasn't that part of it wasn't completely, alone, which, thank God, because I would have perished on that one for sure. But, yeah, the motorcycle side of it was definitely a little bit tricky. As I said, you can't really rent a car, so you're packing up. You've got one little luggage case on the back of your motorcycle, and your packing up can be gear, cooking gear. And then on top of that, you've got a camera gear, which adds a whole different dimension. And then every time he's shooting, you're pulling all the gear off, putting it back on. So it becomes quite an arduous task. And then, I think I dropped the bike probably 5 or 6 times out of exhaustion. But yeah, nothing, nothing, nothing savage. Just kind of silly, clumsy drops, you know? But, yeah, it definitely was an eye opener.The roads over there are quite, quite wild. 

ML: Yeah, I'm sure it's incredibly exhausting, on your body, mentally and physically. 

Jack Bailey: Yeah, but it's in such a beautiful space, you know, that. You can't. You can't really complain. 

ML: Of course. Yeah, it sounds incredible. So, you know, you're out and you're out in the wilderness or out in the wilds. Did you have to deal with any unpredictable weather and terrain or other things? And did that, like, influence your, you know, your mentality and also just like the tone of your photography?

Jack Bailey: Yeah. I think, I mean, traditionally with landscape photography, it is so unpredictable you're dealing with nature, which is such an unpredictable bane itself. So I think there was a lot over there because being on the motorcycle, you were completely exposed to the elements and the distances between locations was so large and so vast that it wasn't simply kind of like pulling off into a gas station, you know what I mean?

Jack Bailey: It was you stuck out there by itself. So if a big storm came through, you just had to bear the brunt of it. And the worst thing over there, I felt, was I heat it was it was hot. And it was kind of desert. It's the desert side of the Himalayas. Trying to escape the sun as well, where you've only got the motorcycle, I found myself, I was shooting a lot of time lapse and kind of long video shots, and I found myself, like, lying under the motorcycle, just trying to get out of the sun for moments that I could.

Jack Bailey: But then at night it would get radically cold. The mechanics, I was kind of. It was a constant battle with the elements and then that, of course, affects your psyche. But then I think that lining up, kind of capturing the elements in the right moment and in injecting your kind of headspace at that time and combining those and, the amalgamation of those two things is what creates the atmosphere, I suppose.

ML: So can you describe for our listeners sort of a location on the route that sort of left you awestruck or like, deeply impacted your creative process? 

Jack Bailey: The whole Tibetan Plateau, which kind of lives up towards the top, top part of that whole area is quite untouched still. And the nomads are still roaming around out there doing their traditional herding and stuff. So I think the spaces like that really kind of impacted me on the, the solitude and the, the expansive spaces out there really kind of impacted on me. And I think this shot, I shot everything a lot wider than I normally do on this because the spaces were so large, and I wanted to kind of really embrace that feeling of emptiness. So, I mean, literally every, every location out there was mind bendingly beautiful. 

Megan: I believe it. Could you describe, like, what those landscapes look like for those who haven't seen it? Like what? How many trees were there? Was it desert? Was there snow? Was it like what was the environment that you were in? 

Jack Bailey: Well I do, I traveled the whole of Ladakh, which is huge, huge. But it was very diverse. But the majority of it was desert. So long, long desert plains, zero trees. And then kind of beautiful bulbous rolling hills, kind of rolling up into like these jagged, sharp peaks through these valleys. But everything had these beautifully bleached colors and very organic kinds of shapes and tones. And then they had these almost metallic colored rocks kind of popping out of this, out of the sides of mountains where there's ores and different minerals would be affecting the earth.

Jack Bailey: It was kind of an amalgamation of everything, you know, beautiful shapes and, and tones. But everything was completely desolate. 

ML: So for, you know, anyone out there, what advice would you offer to sort of aspiring photographers to explore remote and challenging terrains for their work? 

Jack Bailey: The biggest advice would be it's not as difficult as you think. I've generally, as I've spoken about earlier, kind of go in for the underprepared, kind of exist when I'm there on a mixture of false bravado and dumb luck, which tends to this point. It served me really well, but I think that also offers the duality of bad things happening and really great things happening. And I think that enforces, again, a different kind of thought perspective rather than just that comfortable travel. So I would say don't do it in the kind of classic comfortable way. 

ML: What lessons or insights about yourself and your craft as you take away from this experience and just sort of any, any other, challenging work that you've done?

Jack Bailey: I think something that I've been really leaning into on that, on the, lessons that I've been learning on these kind of things is really to lean, lean into what I'm failing and sit a little longer that I'm in on this journey, particularly, I found that with the weather changing so drastically and so radically, I unpacked all my gear, set up a beautiful frame. The weather would move, I chased the weather across a field, turned around the frame I had set up, and that was exactly where it needed to be. So I'd lost that shot. So I'm definitely thinking to slow down and sit longer, both with my work and myself and be more patient is, yeah, kind of where I'm heading. 

ML: When you initially set out on this trip, did you always plan on it being eight weeks or did you, as you're going along in this trip, sort of continuously extend it and just kind of go with the flow?

Jack Bailey: I tend to give myself longer time. So this, this, this trip to the Himalayas was almost three months. So I think the more I do these journeys and these excursions, if you will, I find the longer I'm there, the longer I can understand the location and really get into sync with the space. So I think three months feels like a good time to be somewhere now.

ML: So looking towards the future, like how do you see this trip, to the Himalayas, influencing the direction you want to take in your photography and, and any, you know, future trips planned? 

Jack Bailey: Yeah, I think, I mean, I've just done a month-long road trip around the States and done all the national parks. I really wanted to kind of get that classic Americana, traditional landscape does have just a month in the car driving around slick campaign in a car. I think the next, the next thing is to sit down for a while and process and, yeah, figure out what I'm going to do next and how I'm going to unfold this work. 

ML: I really, really appreciate chatting with you today. This has been a pleasure. 

Jack Bailey: Thank you. Thank you both for the time. And thank you for the invite.

ML: And, looking forward to really seeing, like, what you what you share next. 

Jack Bailey: Yeah. Me too. I don't know what it'll be. Oh, yeah. 

ML: Thank you so much.

Jack Bailey: Have a lovely day. Thank you. 

JB: Jack Bailey is an internationally acclaimed landscape photographer who recently took a trip to the Himalayas on a motorcycle. We reached him in Guadalajara, Mexico. If you want to check out some of his incredible photography captured in the Himalayas, visit our website designatlaspod.com.

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EMAIL THE TIMELESS CONNECTION

JB: Email. It’s one of those things we take for granted, like turning on the lights or clicking “send.” It’s been around since the dawn of the internet—practically ancient by tech standards. And yet, it’s still here, resilient and relevant. This past fall, at the Design Museum in London, Mailchimp designed an exhibit to remind us that email isn’t just alive; it’s thriving. It’s the reliable tool that’s stood the test of time, connecting us in ways we often overlook.

JB: When you walk into the exhibit, the atmosphere is one of respect for this everyday marvel. Here, you’re invited to see email as more than lines of text on a screen. It’s a lifeline, a link to friends and family, a tool for business growth, and sometimes even a small work of art in its own right. The exhibit wants us to remember that every email—every subject line, every click—is a chance to connect, to create, to inspire.

JB: On one side of the exhibit, you’ll find a display called “The Inbox Timeline.” It’s a walk-through history of email, from its early days as a quick way for engineers to share ideas to the branded, personalized messages we see today. Each stop on the timeline highlights a different moment in email’s evolution: the birth of the newsletter, the rise of HTML design, the power of analytics that helps us see what resonates. It’s a reminder that email has grown with us, adapting to our needs and changing with the times.

JB: Then, there’s “The Anatomy of an Email,” an interactive installation that lets you build your own message from scratch. As you select fonts, images, and colors, you realize just how much thought goes into each choice—how the right elements can make a message memorable, inviting, even joyful. You can experiment with tone and style, see how a playful subject line changes the feel of an email, and how visuals draw the reader in. You might think of email as something utilitarian, but here, it feels like a craft.

JB: The exhibit even includes a space called “Stories That Stick,” a collection of real messages from people who used email to change their lives. It’s a wall of small victories—a business that found its first customers, an artist who built a following, a nonprofit that rallied support—all thanks to the humble email. Email has always had a mission about being accessible to everyone, giving even the smallest voices a platform.

JB: This exhibit isn’t just a tribute to email’s past; it’s a look at its future. As other platforms come and go, email remains a constant, a space for creativity and connection. In a world of fleeting interactions, email is a place to slow down, to speak directly, to be seen. It’s not just a message—it’s a moment.

JB: So maybe email is old. But it’s also timeless. Because connection, after all, never gets old.

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CLEANING OFF THE DUST

Featuring Guest: Benedikt Peirotén

JB: What if I told you that sawdust. You know, the stuff that you sweep off the floor after a DIY fail could revolutionize the ceramics industry? Sounds like a plot of a Netflix series, right? But for studio Pipi and their trailblazing founder, Benedikt Peirotén it's just another day at the office. They've taken sawdust, mixed a bit of alchemy, okay, science, and turned it into a sustainable ceramic glaze that's as beautiful as it is eco friendly, with a recipe fine tuned.

JB: Over the past three years, the studio Peipei is saving up to 40 tons of dust per month, proving that even the dust from the Sagrada Familia figurines can find a second act as art. It's not just the dust that's keeping things, well, dusty. It's also the studio's approach to its packaging, from its quirky bags sewn from old tarps and eco labels printed on leftover paper stock, Benedikt is on a mission to make design cleaner, greener and, dare we say, a bit more fabulous. 

JB: Today we're diving into the dust storm of innovation with Benedikt Peirotén to uncover how studio Peipei is rewriting the ceramics rulebook and having a little fun while doing it. We've reached Benedikt in Munich, Germany. 

ML: Benedikt, why don't you start us off with a just quick intro about yourself and all that good stuff?

Benedikt Peirotén: Yeah, my approach is to do healthy materials. I really like it. So yeah, my background is more, a industrial design background. I was creating products and so on. Maybe we will talk about this later as well, but, yeah. So nowadays I want to focus on making and creating materials and closing the loop in. Yeah. In material topics. 

ML: Very cool. So what do you make? What are your materials? Let's start off there. 

Benedikt Peirotén: I mean, the story or the journey started with a glass I made from pizza ashes, like, wood ashes from pizzerias and seashells and quartz. And this was the first material I invented.

Benedikt Peirotén: Actually, it was a lot of fun, but also a lot of problems and, you know, like, creating your first own material is also a big journey into a new field. So, yeah, this was just the beginning. And then I started to invent more and more things and I would say did the biggest invention I made, so far, this clayze. I would say I call it recycled clays even if it's wrong. And the naming. But yeah, this is something I do, but I also focus on fibers and, whatever comes around, I just want to do, let's say, sustainable materials. Let's dive into your ceramic glaze.

ML: So our listeners will hear that, you know, you're using sawdust as a primary ingredient in your ceramic glaze. What made you consider sawdust? 

Benedikt Peirotén: I mean, the sawdust actually has perfect properties to do a glaze, but this I, I developed, a little later. So in the beginning, I just found the resource of sawdust, which is just, I mean, did the industry of the stonemasons, they just put it on landfill, and they, they have no use for it, of course, because, I mean, they are selling stone products and whatever.

Benedikt Peirotén: And Stone does, they, they cannot use even if it's the, the most expensive model or whatever, they throw it away. And in the beginning I just had the approach to, to use it, nothing more. I just wanted to use a resource that is lying around. Yeah. We had I mean, the beginning, it's I think three years ago or four years ago, we had just focused on. yeah, give it to the concrete industry or use it as a class or whatever. But then after a while, we realized, okay, it has really, really good properties being a glaze. So it's melting pretty good. And, you need not that much help from agents and so on. So yeah, actually, then we focused on a perfect recipe.

Benedikt Peirotén: It turns out it takes three years plus to do this. Yeah, it was a really long story. And then, yeah, I always try to, to sell it to someone to produce it because I, I never wanted to, to produce it my own, but, I didn't find someone. And then I thought, okay, let's let's do it. Yeah. And this is where we are. 

ML: Yeah. So. So what are those properties that make sawdust better than, say, other sorts of sustainable materials, like, how is this, is this glaze, better than an alternative, like our traditional surround or ceramic glaze? 

Benedikt Peirotén: I mean, for this, you need to understand how normal glaze is made. In most places in this world, made around quartz. So quartz is the main ingredient, in, I don't know, almost any glaze. And, you know, that wasn't, is, used in, in concrete and in glass and in many, many, many other things as well. And we're getting rid of it. So the world is using sand way too much, you know.

Benedikt Peirotén: So, I've heard it after water. The sand is actually the second resource we use the most. So, Yeah. And the problem is on, on ordinary glazes that they're using, I mean, quartz sand of course, but they also use a lot of other resources we don't have and test. We of course. It's like metal oxides.

Benedikt Peirotén: It's helping agents. It's limestone. It's just there's a long list of ingredients you need. And the, the cool thing on, on sawdust or on stone dust is that the stones already contain a lot of quartz, so we don't need quartz. And so this is I mean, this is one of the first places on the market which is not using quartz sand.

Benedikt Peirotén: And for me, this is the most important step we took. And then what is also very helpful is that the stones are melting pretty easily. So you don't you don't need to add a lot of helpers or something. So when you want to, when you want to melt down quartz and a, a lot of energy, or you need a lot of helping agents and the stones are melting pretty easily. And yeah, to control the quality, we add a little bit of other materials, but actually, the stones are, I don't know, it. It feels like they are made for being a glaze. 

ML: Could you, I guess maybe some of our listeners don't quite, know or not as familiar with the world of ceramics, but could you just give us a brief, explanation of, like, how glazes are important and to in the art of ceramics in that world and what they could be used for there.

Benedikt Peirotén: Sure. I mean, when you have a ceramic, let's say a plate or a couple or whatever, it's pretty rough and, and the texture and and the surface, so you glaze it like, like a cake or whatever. Similar. Yeah. Similar use case and, the, the glaze on a, on a ceramic is just creating a smooth surface.

Benedikt Peirotén: And then of course, you can create colors and textures and whatever, and then it just feeds us endlessly. But, basically it's just there to give you a smooth. Yeah, a smooth surface, which is also making it food safe. Or when you have tiles, it's. Yeah. You're able to, to run on it, to touch it and so on.

Benedikt Peirotén: So it's just a yeah, it's just a surface on a ceramic. 

ML: Amazing. So we have read that when sawdust is in short supply for you, you use dust from stone craftsmen in Barcelona, including dust from the figures that are on display at Sagrada Familia. What's the significance of recycling dust from iconic structures like this? 

Benedikt Peirotén: I mean, when I, when I started, to work with the sawdust, I was living in Barcelona as well. Yeah. And the stonemason, in this area, his name is Arnaud from Bhavani. Artisan. A great guy, a really amazing guy. He was part of the research, actually.

Benedikt Peirotén: So he invited me to come around, to have a look at the studio. Yeah, in his company. And he spent a whole day to show me everything. I mean, he has. No, there was no, you know, like, I'd say for him it was pretty useless. But, for me, it was changing everything.

Benedikt Peirotén: And the day when he invited me, and I was there, they created these figures for the Sagrada Familia. So they still do this? They do it all the time. But, Yeah, when I was there, they. He gave me the sawdust and told me the story. And for me, it was really amazing to hold this. Yeah. Useless sawdust and hence, and listening to his story. And then I thought, okay, this is, this is something really interesting. So you have something with a really, really high value and then there's dust, no one cares about. So let's bring it to the same level of value. Yeah. So this is how the story starts, actually.

ML: So as I understand it, the packaging you're using is also a large component of studio PeiPei’s distribution. What sort of responses are received from the industry? 

Benedikt Peirotén: I mean, at some point maybe we will go a little too far. But yeah, you know, when you, when you focus on solving a problem, there's no end, so you can always solve something more.

Benedikt Peirotén: Yeah. So, I mean, next to inventing materials. I always have a look on, on waste materials and residues from other companies. And I created a big network of companies and people and so on. And someone is calling me like, hey, I mean, can you come back? Hey, we have this.

Benedikt Peirotén: Is that in tons and millions of tons? I don't know. And it's always the same, like, yeah, okay, I don't know. I need to come today. And then they say, yeah, today always throw it away. And yeah, normally I go and I pick up something. Normally not everything. But what I want to say is I started to collect things here and there.

Benedikt Peirotén: And when we went to the packaging of the glaze, I realized, okay, we have a lot of things in our storage, what we can use for the packaging, for example, I was going to a climbing hall and they have mats on the floor. So when you fall down, you fall on these mats and they replace the flooring every second or third year, I don't remember.

Benedikt Peirotén: So all of this flooring they throw away and then they. Yeah. Replace it just to have it in new. And this floor actually is the packaging of all five kilo bag. So, I don't know. Actually, it doesn't make sense because it's a lot of work to sew them together. But I mean, it's more about telling a different story and showing people, okay, you can change something.

Benedikt Peirotén: It's actually, it's pretty easy. Waste everywhere. And you can use it. You just need to ask people, and this is what we want to show if we grow, I don't know, I, I mean, I don't, I don't see it at the moment. But if you grow into a big, big company, maybe we are not able to do this or continue with this, but as long as we can, I want to try to. Yeah. To do recycling in, in every sector. 

ML: There's a lot of materials in this world that you can use. Yes. Oh and and to, to re-revamp and distribute in a different way I love that. So as you look to the future, what innovations is your studio exploring in the ceramic process glazes or are there just like, or alternative production methods or materials on the horizon? What else are you guys doing next?

ML: Actually, we are changing a little bit at the moment because the glazes are just one thing we wanted to show or it's just an example. Let's say it's, it's a good example or hopefully a good example, of alternative ways of creating an industrial product. But in the future, I will focus more on helping manufacturing companies to change something.

Benedikt Peirotén: So I don't want to. I don't want to do everything on my own, you know, because, I mean, I'm also just one person. And I have the same time on the day to, to do something, so I cannot. I cannot do everything on my own. But there are a lot of companies which are producing something and they already exist.

Benedikt Peirotén: I don't need to invent anything new. So my idea is to help others to create materials, cycles, or maybe to use the waste and maybe to sell the waste to a neighboring industry that they can use it and so on. And for this, I had a lot of meetings this year with a lot of companies, big ones and small ones and European ones and international ones.

Benedikt Peirotén: Just at the moment, I, I can't say where the, where the journey is going, but, yeah, they're, I mean, I cannot tell too much. Okay. 

ML: That's all right. That's all right. 

Benedikt Peirotén: There are some, some interesting things coming up. Hopefully. Yeah. You never know. But I think this is kind of the final direction. I, we want to go, like helping others. Yeah. 

ML: So from your perspective, what do you just find most rewarding about the work that you do? 

Benedikt Peirotén: Oh, that's a good question. Actually. I like to be able to do things on my own. And I also like when other creatives create their own materials. Maybe in the example of the ceramic industries, there are a lot of ceramicists creating their own glazes.

Benedikt Peirotén:  And I think this is amazing. So, I mean, there are not many crafts, you can create your own materials. So in the metal industry or maybe, I don't know, a carpenter or something. They are not creating materials. They know pretty well how to work with, but they do not, you know, like they're not creating it.

Benedikt Peirotén: And the ceramic industry for example, it's really amazing because you can create your own glazes. There are millions of recipes and you don't need to buy it. So I mean, you can go around the corner and collect some, I don't know, I've seen a lot of things. You know, you can collect some dust on the streets and, and place your, your cups of this and it's works.

Benedikt Peirotén: So this is something I really like.That people start to use what they have around and you start to start to do their own things, you know, instead of buying something. I mean, this is way more interesting if you create your own things, your own materials, or maybe your own products or whatever. So yeah, I hope this answers your question.

ML: So that's great, I love it. Okay, Benedikt. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Thanks. Thanks for all of this. 

Benedikt Peirotén: Thank you for having me. And, good luck in the future with your podcasts. 

JB: Benedikt Peirotén is the founder of Studio Peipei, working on developing more sustainable glaze for ceramics. We reached him in Munich, Germany.

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THE FLAGS WAVE

JB: Flags. We see them in stadiums, on landmarks, and in parades. They’re symbols of identity, of pride, of belonging. And in the digital age, they’re also in our pockets—well as emojis. But if you’ve ever wondered why your phone has every national flag but not one for your city, or why some flags don’t seem to reflect the world you know, you’re not alone. At the intersection of technology and culture, flag emojis have become a surprising focal point in the conversation about identity and its representation.

JB: Today’s emojis cover a lot of ground: countries, regions, even the Pirate Flag emoji made it in. Yet, despite their widespread use, flag emojis present a unique challenge. They don’t just represent places; they’re deeply tied to culture, politics, and social identities. And in a world of over 200 nations and thousands of cultures, who gets to decide which flags are represented?

Jennifer Daniel: So people text a lot. And 92% of the world's online population use emoji. And one of the beautiful things about emoji is that they operate alongside the language you already speak. They aren't a language unto themselves. If they were, it would be a very hard language to learn. And that's the best part, is that you don't have to learn it. You just use them and it works.

JB: That’s Jennifer Daniel, a key voice in emoji design, who’s been thinking about this question. Her recent work explores how we can make emoji sets more inclusive and adaptable, not just limited to nations but open to symbols that reflect a broader, more complex world. Because while the flag emoji set may seem complete, it only tells part of the story.

JB: Imagine a future where flag emojis go beyond borders to represent communities, regions, or even ideas—symbols that speak to more personal forms of identity. A Pride flag, a local flag, or even flags that capture cultural nuances that don’t fit neatly within national lines. As emojis continue to evolve, designers like Jennifer are challenging the limitations of these symbols and asking how they can better reflect our diverse, interconnected world.

JB: And yet, with all this potential for growth, a surprising decision has emerged: the Unicode Consortium, which manages emoji standards, has chosen to stop accepting proposals for new flag emojis. The reason? Flags have proven to be highly political symbols that can be divisive or exclusionary. The challenge of choosing which flags to include—and how to handle new regions, communities, and identities—proved too complex and controversial to manage within the emoji set.

JB: But all hope isn’t lost. In place of traditional flag emojis, the emoji community is looking toward other symbols that could represent identities, movements, and places without the limitations of rigid borders. We might see more icons for communities, symbols that speak to shared experiences, or even customizability that allows users to create their own unique representation. Because while flags may no longer be added, our digital language can still evolve to capture who we are and how we connect.

JB: So here’s to the future of flag emojis. Here’s to a more flexible, inclusive set of symbols that celebrates not only nations but communities, cultures, and everything in between. Because at the end of the day, a flag—whether on a pole or a screen—isn’t just a design. It’s a way to say, “I’m here. I’m part of this.” And in an ever-evolving world, that’s a message worth sending.

[Closing theme song]

JB: You've been listening to the Design Atlas podcast. Our show can be heard every other Thursday on your favorite podcasting app. 

ML: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on Design Atlas by visiting our website, designatlaspod.com. I'm Megan Luedke. 

JB: And I'm Jens Bringsjord. Good night.